and that's going to do it for now but for more on the stories we covered go to argue dot com slash usa also check out our you tube page you tube dot com slash r g america should also follow me on twitter i'm at franzi i'm christine. rachel martin here broadcasting live from washington d.c.

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the i.q. sops to. life. video . oxys minefield comes and says feeds now in the palm of your. question on the key job call. you can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what does people's power mean there today and could the revolution be hijacked during the coming elections. and.

cross talk what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's a journalist and author of in london we go to now el saadawi she's a writer and political activist and often referred to as the mother of the revolution and in zurich we crossed the lower end zone to dino he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump anytime you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. but it's really thought our lives to say that it's lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he did is he in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch out

very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems think christian cops and all of that it's just i think it's a pick me for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that give times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now you know it will take us before seeing a sorry you or your brothers very interesting story ground you have a very good point i got i think. in london the military saying that you really have

to watch out for the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. way. was that very clear. and he used security and stability the same language american can on the end language british colonial language security stability they never speak of our guest is socially gashed since early quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that the egyptian people to me on the people who went to the streets said that he was with square since twenty five january and of course we got freed of the head of the. but the body of very dream is still there they are in that really terry in the

government in the media in your universe you know like me who i did all around so on the point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime is just without its head and this is really one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls are huge swaths of the economy i mean if in many many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising in a ways by the military yes of course it's trying to maintain its power its economic power hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military to slow down partially would change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so it is almost productively the

muslim brotherhood is the one of these pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones doing down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as we should ask for prosecution of the of individual selling to the regime but on the other hand bismo down certain things and that is problematic that i think speaks in a way of the defragmentation of political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own from internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok i think it's very interesting or so gyptian the liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they. are the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program or we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the way i was going to rule very first i'm going to i head to head yeah yeah yeahs they're very well organized they've been working since

so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliament the last election the one before. muslim brotherhood there is they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something see if they they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election where in total are free but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with the muslim brother and i think they did some how they divided the power you control as mother and muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care these patients and muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will take care of you when you give them back is your vote and that's. not a bad deal is it that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering that is so far it's not

a bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will do what the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it and. arms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what i want to be out of their government what what would we expect that we'll be there for there are there are there agenda there will be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to mohamed el baradei today or i nor all of these people they will simply tell you we need more time than eyes for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relation we might have but churchill was relations in the second half of the program and now what do you think about i mean. the muslim brotherhood very prepared for this election here and

nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of what. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of god not rather now because who supported the muslim brothers said that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers you do really i say george bush and bin ladden of planes so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and their work. politics the muslim brotherhood does not start their revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority their evolution on the twenty five of january started without the muslim brothers there was not the same deal islamic slogan christian or religious it was

a very secular revolution from the beginning when their revolution succeeded them that most of them rather growing in the usually do that oh. also in just a few days ago it's of delight with the second group the muslim brotherhood did not share and they wouldn't even against it and today they are against a good illustration but the neons of people in egypt. and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they guy. has let me go to you because he this is the muslim brotherhood is a political fact on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of people now lorenzo go ahead. yeah of course it is part of a lot of people i think you know the problem is. how do you deal with that on a practical and i think the the the supreme council of the armed forces also as a probably in a way a lot of people are accusing them of striking a deal with the brotherhood. which to some degree is true because at the end of the

day the brotherhood is this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire twenty five thirty percent of qualified minority will lead him to be did the greatest party in the future egyptian parliament or how you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in the thank you have not been able to create to untie brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life good anyways do not share these almost platform views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with your position views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false i think the big dilemma bear in washington now is after yourself and refusing to even talk to the brotherhood which was to some degree and i critical and not very

pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states acknowledges that the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian. government how you do with them and the position of the clinton is speaking right now it's for if you do sound one we talk to everybody you anybody who does not support violence and we have this wait and see approach for our low level meetings because we can or we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach with it you have to look at it it's good it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to break through what do you think about that i mean you may now like them but you have to deal with them yeah absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in dhaka fight barriers in gaza they won the election immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a car that i think a mass it's become a disastrous way sion till today we're saying that i'm credible results of that the

worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what the jordanian regime did they included paying the bill i'm going to jump in here with a gun we're sure great and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with arkie. you. start. bringing you the latest in science and technology from the ground. we've got the future covered.

and you can. start. if you want

to. welcome back to cross talk about remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution in. egypt. started. ok now i want to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt there's a going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values yes i have confidence in the power of the neons for invest treats living in tents and back in the square and everywhere i have confidence in the people but i would get up and say something very important how matz was encouraged by israel in the fight against russia. and. then you had and was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because

of what happened that all others the dictators the capitalists pollers they play fair i really just sort of who should then the socialist revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use colonizers of course and their allies like mubarak and said then so be pretty what they are afraid of the real socialist through of the millions and that's why they encourage some i'll come as muslim brothers religious groups tell a few union egypt we have to say a few you can't like that through saudi arabia and the us so we have to really aware of the fact ok that connection lorenzo you were you were you were you were thinking while you were laughing go ahead you want to make a comment there because i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to see a secure tauriel mindset and i see my interest also stick with my question here the

rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think go ahead lorenzo yellow let me through first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's just mind blowing because it interferes one thing with the united states fears today it is anything islam is i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic phobia. and i think what rula was talking about with hamas i think exactly explains it i think you are right right we sort enormous concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states information through far so i think that sets a for as you said you should point out you have not a real good majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these. huge countries but million people really do much dorothy i mean we've seen historically you've been noticing that the best organized political forces are the one to take over and as much as

historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force but it has a massive popular support like the brotherhood can take over and i want to pause and think the brotherhood will i mean this is a little you this is. this is one of the groups who are not organized one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what do you that's why i want to do this program he you see there's a fear that he and i'm not going to focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because we're going is ation is very important you can get rid of the head the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the power of both sides of car for the regime got the car of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know the egyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them

a lot of votes and you go to any mosque in sarajevo in everywhere in the south of egypt is any simple in even without the background or the education he will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there they love got millions of votes let's be let's be clear about this is going there are gender is are a ruler of all i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean that one of the things i think is very interesting here is it is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that we see that with hamas i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same time this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way what you think about that and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from there on i live in egypt all my life i was in back areas where all but i i feel that people yes there are millions who went through that is where are not the eighty five

million in egypt the muslim brotherhood few thousands they are organized but they are just through cell that they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know the situation i feel but i have confidence in the people because they live with them they are not with the muslim brotherhood has no one. got injured and they are not i don't mind us shame to you as a free liberal woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the propaganda about. we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that they will be that

they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament you really think that a lot anyway ocean. you didn't follow that of the last sort of illusion in egypt we've said there will be no reactions there is a pressure now for the millions we have to post but postponed the elections because employers have elections now or in november or september or even december the of course the organized groups the old organized groups not only have muslim brother but because political parties brought what are we. but we are asking this is one of the very important demand of that evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the election still with changing the constitution with changes there the laws of political parties and all of those so that we give. to the young

people to the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and can't bear the election ok reza what are glance going to show to you are going to hold one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the both egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example the grandfather had it's very difficult to see what. was a vote and egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to say that but is as much of the liberals going again here because you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately it is one of the communications so where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal very very

difficult to see i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a bit to get from these. and the poor bigot from the liberals seem trying to have at least the leaders talking about some guidelines of what the constitution should look like and of course it has. to see the sharia should be the source of legislation which is exactly what the constitution of the last thirty years has said so no difference in that the. sort of keep it at least the way it is if the elections the brotherhood were to acquire a position of more influence i don't think we're going to get a majority but a position of thirty percent something around that number we've alliances i think there's no question about going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand with some of the fear mongers here in the west thinking of things like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to pushing for more show you're for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for

women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program yes you go ahead i was going to talk about foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not the kind of relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these people the more leverage you have on top of the listen the military didn't shoot anybody in order to shoot a lot of the fault i am sorry i hated clinton is not going to tell me what i'm going to do he added clinton is that her writing on no not is telling yes he's not the one i only say that i'm sure what you know what i would like to see that the egyptian revolution now let's try to resign and not in an ideological way where trying i mean try not by not saying rather it just listen to me because i called right now the prime and i'm here i mean we are not talking out of ideology we

should resign as we are not for the future of egypt i think all power not your highly i think you and your three. please start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are some think the more it was well that was like three days but the longer they are and willing to talk that whole day was so the right time to jump in here and we're going to land somewhere around zone you see is the hit me yes this the end of my life before we had a very dogmatic point of view in politics how do you think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular or religious that is a yes even if he goes on the road also when it comes to the brotherhood dishwasher's remains a strong ideological organisation there's no question when push comes to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in the opposition you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern to some degree they're going to have to go over and then you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed

up at the moment but then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a do do destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas so we've got us with turkey we've the arab league that's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean in a way we've been talking up the brotherhood as this super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never faced the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its activities its grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to make and i think that's going to really change are going to create a lot of patience in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing with some internal frictions taking place within the group so the brotherhood self has to become more pragmatic the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks and i guess it in rome

and in and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. take a. look.

marvin here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture. british. markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike stronger for a no holds barred look at the global financial.